Art Bell - Maj. Ed Dames - Remote Viewing - 07-12-1995
""" Art Bell
Welcome to Archive Obscura. Please help us bring you more of this type of content by liking and subscribing.
A guest for Next Hour who should be of some interest. You may recall the the Night Line program a few nights ago that dealt with remote viewing. Well, I got a um I got a fax from Norio Hayakawa um which reads the following. It's a it's kind of interesting. Major Ed Dames, US Army retired, has decided to go public art with his involvement in the US government's psychic spy operations in response to the halftruths. Did you hear that?
Halftruths and disinformation about the project now being disseminated by CIA and others as reported most recently on the ABC Night Line program of 112895.
Dames is the man who actually helped create the psychic espionage unit of the US Army's uh department of military intelligence, heading its operation for about a decade, leading all of its major operations and uh severing as its only training off serving as its only training officer during the project's entire 28-year history.
Now, the major cannot speculate on why the CIA and others have begun this program of disinformation, though he has some ideas.
What he can and apparently will talk about are other projects not mentioned.
Sun streak, grill frame, center lane, Stargate, I like that one, as well as Scanate.
Uh, none of these were ever mentioned.
They are also apparently government programs. So this would be the man who would know um he ran his unit under the charter of the DIA, Army Inscom, but also NSA, DIA, NEA, Navy, Air Force. In other words, all the spooks.
And it should be very interesting to find out what Night Line uh told us that was wrong and what Night Line did not tell us at all. and I thought you would be very interested in that and he has agreed to come on for an hour at midnight. So we'll we'll talk to him.
We'll find out.
Now it was launched 6 years ago.
Galileo uh has made it to Jupiter. It took 20 years of scientific work and it was indeed and they needed one a good day for NASA.
The probe was launched right on schedule. It transmitted photographs and data back to Galileo.
The 750 lb probe deployed by Galileo entered the atmosphere. Parachutes popped out. Data began streaming in and it continued for 75 minutes until the probe disintegrated.
as it entered the denser aspects of um uh Jupiter's uh atmospheres plural.
At any rate, uh then Galileo uh did a rocket burn, placed itself in orbit. It will stay there for a couple of years, look at the moons of Jupiter and look more at Jupiter and then finally burn up in Jupiter. We will not get the first data it has sent for several weeks. The first photographs should be here by summer.
That's very interesting. We don't know a thing about Jupiter. Very little. It's about 1,500 times the size of Earth.
Now, what is interesting about Jupiter is one of the layers of atmosphere, and I know this is very hard for a lot of people to understand, including me, is made up of water. That's right. water just like the stuff comes out of your tap that is part of the atmosphere. In fact, some speculate Jupiter may be nothing but uh many atmospheres.
It is possible that there might be life. If there was going to be life, there would be life in the water portion of Jupiter's atmosphere. Now, whether or not it got down that far in 75 minutes of parachute descent, I don't know, but one would hope it did.
It came streaking in at about 100,000 miles an hour.
That's fast.
50 times the speed of a bullet.
And reached temperatures exceeding those on the surface of the sun and yet survived apparently to send back information to us.
You've got to wonder if uh there is some life on Jupiter, what that life thought about what came down.
Maybe we just provided Jupiter's Sakuro crash or Roswell crash.
You'd have to wonder how any life there would view it. At any rate, it will be weeks or months before we get all the information that we will have coming.
All right. In a moment, the world of psychic [music] spying. Major Ed Dames, US Army retired, has decided to go public.
[music]
I've got a facts here from Norio Hayakawa about him. We'll touch on that and then we'll talk with a major in a moment.
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Stay right where you are.
[music]
On November 28th, Night Line did a show on something called remote viewing, which is a sort of a psychic expression.
And um it is said to mean, I guess, that you can look through somebody else's eyes and in essence spy, uh as in reading their mind. It seemed an odd um a very odd thing for Night Line to do actually uh in view of the breaking Bosnia story at the time. Anoro Hayakawa has sent me a fax about a man named Major Ed Dames, US Army retired, and he helped apparently set up the US government's psychic spy operations.
And he says that not everything Night Line said was accurate. Not only that, but they barely touched the surface um of what really is going on. And here he is. Uh Major Ed Dames. Uh Major, can you hear me? """
""" Ed Dames Yes, I can. Can you hear me? """
""" Art Bell I hear you just fine. You're not on a speaker phone, are you? """
""" Ed Dames Uh I won't be in a moment. How's that? """
""" Art Bell Oh, much better. Okay.
Much better. Uh good. Now, um is this roughly accurate? In other words, did you in essence help some part of the government help uh set up the whole uh operation that is still I guess ongoing? """
""" Ed Dames It is no longer um extent. I was uh the both the operations officer and the training officer for the unit. """
""" Art Bell Uhhuh. """
""" Ed Dames It was originally an army unit in 1978.
It evolved uh was passed to DIA in the uh mid 1980s and ended up uh for about oh three or four months in under the uh opaces of CIA but only a uh a shadow of its former self. """
""" Art Bell Major uh how did you come to be involved if we might know briefly uh to even begin thinking about forming this? Uh, do you yourself have some sort of psychic uh uh power or were you simply in charge of the project uh to gather together those who allegedly did?
Well, I'm about as psychic as a rock. """
""" Ed Dames I see. Okay. My job at at very high levels of intelligence in the 19 uh and early 19 uh the early 1980s about 198081 was to orchestrate the penetration of high value int uh foreign intelligence projects and uh to with uh foreign missile delivery systems, nuclear weapon systems, biological and chemical warfare programs to penetrate those and gather intelligence uh on them. There were some of those targets that by hook or by crook using agents or satellites or uh special operations unit short of an act of war I could not answer the mail so to speak. And so as a tactic of desperation I turned to earlier CIA studies and to work that was being done by an uh an
operating US Army unit using people natural uh psychics. Uh Joe McMonagle, who you might have seen uh the other night on Night Line, was one of those naturals to help me solve problems or give me some type of uh a handle on the problems I was faced with, very intractable problems. """
""" Art Bell So, Major, you uh this this idea was birthed from your brain then. In other words, you weren't brought in and sat down by some colonel or general and said, "Well, here is your next assignment, Major. You're going to put this unit together." """
""" Ed Dames That was not my That was not my primary job. I put together an effective operating force. But the unit in fact in its original primal form was already operating in the late 1970s using naturals. There was uh it evolved into something much more powerful later.
""" Art Bell Huh? """
""" Ed Dames We can talk about that. """
""" Art Bell All right. Um what uh what disinformation uh was most apparent to you in the Nightline program? In other words, um, it to me, as I said earlier in the introduction, it seemed very odd they did a show on this right in the middle of the Bosnian thing. Very odd. I mean, it popped out of nowhere. """
""" Ed Dames I think it's a really damaged control.
Uh, there's there are u elements of Congress, certain Congress, uh, congressmen who were involved in supporting the project, and the CIA itself to avoid embarrassment wanted to do some damage control. I think that was one element. I am not sure about that about their agenda. What I am sure about are two points that were erroneous. The Ted Cppel stated that uh or attempted to ascertain that uh the CIA statement spending 11 to 20 million right >on the program was real. That is not in fact uh correct. Stargate, the the remnants of the collection group, the intelligence collection group. Mhm.
Uh that was a research project. The 11 to 20 million that the CIA says it spent was not on operational that is an intelligence collection element. It was on research funds, research monies, an attempt to establish the validity of technical remote viewing. That's my term. Uh that's what my company uses. """
""" Art Bell And uh not on intelligence collection. """
""" Ed Dames That's one point. Second point is that Stargate was not the uh was only the last six months to two years of the program and only consisted of three remote viewers that worked for the government. One who I trained and was uh an excellent remote viewer. The other two were naturals and they were simply tarot card readers that the agency found somewhere and that were uh essentially the concubines of a couple of congressmen. I'm sorry to say Well, that's that's quite right.
""" Art Bell You say whatever you want. Um uh first of all, how effective is remote viewing? A lot of people don't even know what remote viewing is. A lot of the audience doesn't. They probably didn't see Night Line. What is it? And how effective actually is it? """
""" Ed Dames Let me let me give you some background.
The the reason that those of us in army intelligence in the in the 80s could not use natural psychics was that natural psychics when they were on target, they were really on the best of the best and there were about five or six of them in the United States. But when they were off target, they were really off. And it was that lack of consistency that that disallowed them from being used on uh operations in support of operations where deadly force would be used or life or death situations uh prevail. """
""" Art Bell Sure, but I'm sure you had to crunch numbers and they demanded numbers. I mean, how else do you prove it? They're right x number of% of the time and wrong some%. """
""" Ed Dames That was not my job to crunch numbers.
There were two aspects of this program.
It's important to distinguish that. Two parallel programs. One was a research side of the house that was uh out in the open. That's the kind of thing that was being discussed by the by Keith Herreri uh and Dale Graph and uh Yes. Yeah. the other night.
But there was another unit that was very very secret and that was the unit for which I was operations officer and training officer. We were actually the intelligence collectors. We did not have to be politically correct. That is to crunch numbers to validate the existence of the phenomenon in the eyes of the the US Army and people who own the project at DoD level.
The research had to continue in order to justify the continued expenditure of funds for operational element of which I led. """
""" Art Bell Um what has made you decide to go public about this? """
""" Ed Dames a number of things, not the least of which is that the taxpayers spent a lot of money uh on on the development of this program and and I'll talk about what I mean by that. It has
""" Art Bell Did we waste our money? """
""" Ed Dames No, you did not waste your money. I my company is now helping federal authorities find the uni bombers and uh we'll be very successful at doing that.
That'll be proof of the pudding. Um but that came about from a lot of hard work on the part of uh US Army officers that and a a a brilliant discovery uh in 1983 by a man Ingo Swan, a natural psychic who lives in New York City >> who discovered a structured way of commu of how the unconscious mind communicates with conscious awareness. How to tap into collective unconscious, if you will, sort of like an automated database, the same way one would search out uh a database. How to how to allow the unconscious mind to do that and communicate to conscious awareness detailed, very accurate information while suppressing imagination. being able to to train someone to distinguish
between his or her imagination and the data that is associated with a target, a person, a place, a thing or an event >and how to suppress one's uh uh propensity to analyze the data. So we're downloading from collective unconscious raw perceptual information in a very structured way. """
""" Art Bell And when you say target, you mean a specific individual. What I mean is a person, a pl information about a person, a place, a thing, an object or an event. """
""" Ed Dames The recon we can reconstruct an event using these techniques. What happened in a place """
""" Art Bell Um, and that that would be interesting.
How does one ? """
""" Ed Dames there's a way to explain it teach uh somebody with these powers to delineate between their own imagination and what is being remotely viewed """
""" Art Bell That that would be quite a trick. """
""" Ed Dames That was part and parcel of the dis the breakthrough discovery by made by Ingo Swan, the person who was a contractor, the natural psychic who was contracted by the US government, the the army in this case. That was part of his discovery at Stanford Research Institute in 1983. He had been there for a number of years and had been the guinea pig of the American Society for Parasychological Research for many years and uh extremely gifted natural psychic who turned this attention on himself and said how am I doing this and was able to put together a model for how he himself as a naturally gifted psychic was communicating his unconscious to his conscious awareness. when he put
together this model, which is a set of protocols, behavioral protocols that I teach and that he taught me, we're able to discriminate to teach ourselves how to distinguish imagination all the time from what we call the signal. That is the the data that's associated with our target discovery.
The signal is just sort of a part of the overall noise level. The signal is that little weak voice, if you will, that is associated with the target as opposed to our own background noise, the day-to-day moment to moment conscious noise that that that we have in our in our conscious mind. """
""" Art Bell Is there a way uh or you may not want to and uh I don't want to push into it, but is there a way to briefly describe to us the methods that methodology you use? """
""" Ed Dames Yes, I'll give you an overview uh without going into the the course is a nine-day very intensive course and so I'll skip a lot including lectures.
Okay, but basically whene we acquire a target. We are able to turn our our conscious attention and our unconscious mind to the target via a series of of stages. It takes about 20 minutes for us to go through as remote viewers to go through these stages to a point where we can accurately begin to perceive correctly elements about a target, a person, place, a thing or an event. These stages are there are six stages. Each one is is tantamount to increasing increasingly greater target contact. First of at first we and this is done in a state of of high attention. It is not like the old days where we use altered states laid down in the bed in a dark room.
And uh sort of like a stream of consciousness uh uh protocol. This is a structured the very structured technique. The remote viewer sitting at a desk with a with a ream of white paper in front of him or her and a pen and using these protocols, they first perceive a target. They're not told what the target is. They're only given a random number. Their unconscious mind is taught to do all the work.
They perceive a target first as a gestalt of information kind of a thought ball if you will. This is a this is elaborated on the paper in a certain way. The next stage is sensory perceptions where they are they elaborate they download they objectify in words and sketches the colors textures the smells and tastes the sounds the temperatures and the dimensions that are present at the site.
They write those words down and it's done in a f in an order about four seconds is think of a metronome in front of you where you're moving very rapidly writing down these percepts.
The next stage they do some is kinesesthetic target contact where they do some cursory sketching of the target.
The next stage, stage four is where they begin to make judgments about the data and write down things like uh people, chairs, meeting uh those kinds of things. Yes.
And uh and we and we can anyway we proceed along the using these protocols in a very structured manner where to the point where we can do accurate very accurate drawings, distances, directions, vectors of a target. We can do clay models of a person, a place, a facility, those kinds of things. An object. For instance, right now we're modeling for a uh a federal agency the the next set of bombs that the uni bomber is making uh to use against civilians.
Wow. So that kind of thing.
that's what my company Scitec is doing. """
""" Art Bell Now the research at Scitec uh or in that government work you did.
Um was there ever any research into whether the target uh at any point becomes aware in any way or of any change uh discomfort uh probing um uh aware in any way that he or she is a target. """
""" Ed Dames there have if if the target happens to be a natural psychic somebody that's very gifted a very gifted natural we all have this faculty it's innate it just has to be trained to be useful and there was no structure or grammar if you will until the discovery was made if a trained remote viewer or a natural psychic happens to be the target then sometimes uh they can they are aware that they're being targeted but it it's it's fairly rare We go in the back door.
If our target is a person, Saddam Hussein or Abu Nidal or a terrorist, we go in the back door, so to speak. We can be in their mind, in their dreams, and they they will never be consciously aware that they're being targeted.
""" Art Bell Uh-huh. Major, is it possible to uh beyond reading somebody in essence or um remote viewing? """
""" Ed Dames I don't know what you mean by reading actually. Well, intuitively reading um through them in in the remote viewing process. Uh what I'm what I'm asking is is it possible to go to beyond that and actually uh control another mind.
We have never been able to do that. The our Soviet counterparts, the KGB team known as the extra sensors, that was that was a Russian term. They attempted to they attempted those kinds of things mostly unsuccessfully. They tried to stop hearts by experimenting with frogs, stopping frogs hearts and attempting to move up and uh up the ante, but they were fairly unsuccessful.
We never attempted anything like that and uh as far as I know we we wouldn't be able to do it.
I would not engage in that kind of thing. """
""" Art Bell Okay. """
""" Ed Dames Uh it's a passive act. It collects information and downloads it very accurately. """
""" Art Bell Major,
[clears throat]
this is just conjecture. But do you think that this ability apparent innate ability in some is something that we are coming to as in the process of evolution or something that is long forgotten and simply being re uh resurrected by people like you? """
""" Ed Dames Well, I'm speculating. When I say this and it's my personal opinion, I think it's our birthright. I think it was forgotten somewhere way back there uh centuries or perhaps millennia ago.
That's what I believe to be true. Uh it has been a periodic cyclic interest since the the mid 1800s. Now I think it's going to stick this time.
Well, the military um intelligence people seem to be prepared to say in essence, we're turning it over to the private sector. I assume they meant people like you. But if this was so effective for the military, I can't imagine uh the intelligence folks uh casting it off to the private sector.
Well, I've been involved in a lot of very very deep dark black projects in my career, and I have to say that I have never uh dealt or been or been uh assigned to a unit that has suffered more ostracism, >more uh uh been looked upon with more fear, more uh jealousy than uh that unit that I was assigned to. """
""" Art Bell I can imagine that. """
""" Ed Dames And uh it was at in the in the late 70s it was associated with the occult uh that gave it a bad name and no matter how uh good we performed there were others that uh senior officers uh not just army uh senior civilian officials who were scared to death by this. They did not want to hear that it was true.
when the uh the head of the presidential foreign intelligence corps the Pythad was briefed he went sheet white and said man should not know these things until he dies so you can imagine what we were up against. """
""" Art Bell I really can uh major stand by you've got about a four or five minute break stay right there we'll be [music] back to you my guest is Major Ed Dames US Army retired put together the team one of the teams uh actually was the leader
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You're listening to ArtBell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
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Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from December 7th, 1995.
You're listening to Artbell Somewhere in Time on premier [music] radio networks.
Good morning. My [music] guest is Major Ed Dames, US Army retired, put together a project, actually several projects, uh, that involve remote viewing. It is a fascinating, fascinating topic. He's in the private sector now. And at the moment looking for the uni bomber. We'll ask him about that in a second.
Back now to Major Ed Dames. Uh, Major, I assume, uh, publicly having announced that you're looking for the uniomber, you uh, check your mail carefully. """
""" Ed Dames Uh, I have certain built-in controls. """
""" Art Bell Yes, I'm sure you would. Um, are you getting close to the uni bomber? """
""" Ed Dames We've got we've we've got uh the principles. Yes. Uh they're concentrated in the South Bend, Indiana area as I have uh I've I've mentioned that publicly once, but but the details uh further details we have to provide to law enforcement uh agencies. """
""" Art Bell I understand. Did they come to you or did you go to them? """
""" Ed Dames Uh the unib no you're you're the agencies. Uh it was a uh it was a mutual agreement. """
""" Art Bell Mutual agreement. Um where major can this go? In other words, as these abilities continue to develop, where do you think the ceiling might be? """
""" Ed Dames I don't know, Mr. Bell. I really don't know. Uh it would be a world without secrets. Uh what kind of a world that would be. I think it might be a better world, but I can only I can only speculate as as can you. It It's a profound tool. I understand why it scares people. I don't want somebody in my mind. """
""" Art Bell Uh I uh I understand that. Uh it's uh it would be a brave new world. """
""" Ed Dames I And again uh I I civilianize this to use it against uh uh p there's practical solutions outside of law enforcement too. We can look at the causes of illnesses and the treatments, those kinds of things. uh lots of science applications, things that we used it for in the military. As a matter of fact, where it's going, um sky's is the limit. """
""" Art Bell Sky's the limit. Um uh here's a fact.
Ask your guest art to comment on the suspicious circumstances surrounding the death of Inggo Swan and others who were involved in the original projects. """
""" Ed Dames Swan is alive and kicking as of uh this morning. """
""" Art Bell Well, then I don't know where he got this. Uh were there any killed in the early uh early projects? """
""" Ed Dames There were uh there was one death but uh it was a heart attack. Um one of the one of the remote viewers the person using an altered state had a weak heart and uh and killed over in an operation.
Uh um that was the only death that the project uh could could record. """
""" Art Bell All right. From Variety magazine um there was a soldier um featured recently uh who had been shot in the head. Do you know about this man? """
""" Ed Dames apparently um shot in the head and developed psychic abilities after that. Uh worked on Saddam Hussein for a while. Uh then I guess um uh in fact he was used against Saddam Hussein they said during the Gulf War and his conscious conscience be began to bother him. Do you know anything about this?
That soldier was my former vice president and uh he fabricated the complete story. He was shot in the head in uh Jordan on a training exercise.
because he was the safety officer for a gunnery practice and he stood up in front of his men and he was shot in the helmet. His kevlar helmet took the round and he had a headache for two days. """
""" Art Bell Mhm. """
""" Ed Dames Uh that's you know that's that's the extent of that. I I I have fired him. He was dishonorably discharged from the US Army. Less than honorable discharge in lie of a court marshal. And I I I can't have people like that associated with Scitec. """
""" Art Bell So you've got to be very careful, don't you? Um uh and I I assume you go through a tremendous screening process and trying to determine how do you by the way determine if somebody is genuine. Uh if I came to you and I said look I can read minds. I can see what others are doing. I already have that ability. How would you test me? """
""" Ed Dames I don't test you. I interview you. I can train anyone. Uh what I'm looking for is someone who is going to use the skills because I am not going to invest nine long hard days of my time and someone who's not going to take this back and use it and and their dis perspective discipline whether that's medicine.
We train doctors, scientists, musicians, uh you name it.
Uh who who we want to to go back and use this in the profession to solve their own problems and to bootstrap their own uh uh disciplines. met some of them have written books. I if you were to come to me as a natural psychic with that kind of a talent, I would first be be leery that you had a big ego. If you your ego was such that you've been told how good you were for many years, I'm going to need to break that down because you have to start from square one with me. Think of if I were an NBA uh uh scout and I saw some kid in inner city who could run rings around uh his his his peers with a basketball.
Yeah, if that kid was prepared to come with me and start from square one in training camp, I know I can make an allar out of him. But if he's not, then I can't do anything with that. """
""" Art Bell Of of the two possibilities, uh would you rather train the untrained uh and you know the uh those who um have a sort of latent ability that you can bring out or would you rather have somebody already with a great power in this area come to you? """
""" Ed Dames I've been train training since 1983 and I think it's split down uh down the middle 50/50. About half of the people I have trained uh who have become all stars rather than just mere professionals uh ha were were said they had no psychic ability to speak up and it turns out that they they did and didn't know it and they were superb. Uh the other half were people who had natural psychic ability and uh and knew it uh but were
willing to tow the line and uh submit to the training protocols which are rigorous. """
""" Art Bell Is there a physical psychological price somebody pays for doing this work? """
""" Ed Dames I think only that it uh it changes the way you look at the world and that does have certain ramifications. It does not empower you. But but when you act you reach a point in training where you can stick your heads metaphorically up above the cloud and see where you've been, where you're going, and your relationship to everything else around you for the first time. That is a a fairly life-changing event. So yes, that and with regard to that, it does. """
""" Art Bell All right. Um there's two sides to every story. And here's another side. Suppose I take your course. I become an all-star and I decide that I'm going to um say uh target the head of Disney or ABC and I'm going to do this because I think there might be something going on and I find out there's going to be a merger and so I buy the right stock and I start making a lot of money with this power. Is that an improper use of the power? """
""" Ed Dames It's I' I'd prefer to call it a skill than a power. """
""" Art Bell
All right.
"""
""" Ed Dames Yes sir.
Uh uh I I can't be the judge of that though Mr. Bell. I I'm I what I'm doing is is training people to use this turn generally speaking the more one uses it the more for some strange reason the more ethical one becomes. It has a spiritualizing quality to it.
I don't know why that is but it does. """
""" Art Bell Uh but but yes you could do that. """
""" Ed Dames It would be it it takes a lot of work to do that and uh it would take you a number of days to to do the to pull in the right amount of information, but yes, you would be able to do that. """
""" Art Bell All right. Would um several people with this skill be more powerful than one? """
""" Ed Dames The way that we employ uh the our our our company is the same way that we used it in the military mission mode. We have six to eight remote viewers working on important projects. That's the only way that we can guarantee and we're the first in history to guarantee that psychically produced data will be dead on on a project. Uh that's the only way we can when we can achieve that uh that degree of uh confidence back. """
""" Art Bell Okay. So it's not it's not a matter matter of uh additional power. It's a matter of um a cooperation. """
""" Ed Dames So that we're usually corroborating data. We we have built-in controls. Uh half the viewing team has absolutely no idea what the target is. Some have uh just a modicum of target information. """
""" Art Bell
So you've got a control group.
"""
""" Ed Dames We have a control group. Yes. """
""" Art Bell Um how did you proceed from the military side of this to the privatized side of this? You've got a company. It does this kind of work. What kind of clients other than law enforcement looking for the uni bomber, that sort of thing? What might typically be a client of yours? """
""" Ed Dames A lot of uh science uh research and development types of uh uh companies who are interested in uh solutions to technical problems or perhaps a new drug. Um uh vaccines uh those kinds of things. """
""" Art Bell AIDS research? """
""" Ed Dames Yeah, some AIDS research. We we actually uh had a almost landed the project to look at the uh the origin of AIDS. Now, now we have to be careful when we do something like this. Uh too, AIDS is both a disease and a virus. So, when you're searching the collective unconscious, the way that we do it in a very rigorous systematic manner, if we are looking for the origin of the AIDS virus, we can go back 10,000 40,000 years where it appeared to be a canine virus that jumped ship and became Simeon or monkey born. But if we look for a if we just target the topical idea of AIDS then we see a number of a couple decades ago it's its beginnings as a pandemic.
So we have to be very careful about what we call queuing those search terms. """
""" Art Bell All right. You keep using the term collective unconscious. Now delineate that kind of work uh with a specific target. How do you how do you collect information from the collective? And by that I I assume you mean the world's unconscious. """
""" Ed Dames The global mind. """
""" Art Bell If you mean the global mind. All right. There. There you are. """
""" Ed Dames Yeah. Uh using the protocols that we use, we turn our conscious attention to a target. Our unconscious attention follows. It's it's our unconscious attention is already immersed in this global mind. It's already there. It doesn't go anywhere. It simply turns and looks in the direction. Look, I'm using that term loosely. It it it it focuses upon that specific area that we're interested in. """
""" Art Bell
I don't suppose you coined the phrase think globally.
"""
""" Ed Dames No, not me. """
""" Art Bell Um, all right. I have uh had on my program and we'll have on tomorrow night uh somebody who claims great psychic powers and uh has documented them to a great degree. Gordon Michael Scallion. """
""" Ed Dames I've heard of him. """
""" Art Bell You know the name? """
""" Ed Dames Yes. Um he has predicted accurately um weather cycles uh volcanic action uh earlier in the year and in March a series of earthquakes that he now believes may be culminating in a very very large series of earthquakes soon. """
""" Art Bell Uh in your probing of the collective consciousness uh do you run into any anything like this? """
""" Ed Dames Yes sir we do. """
""" Art Bell Can you tell me um anything about what you found >or will in a >general fashion? Yes. In a general way, it appears that um over the years we we've looked at these just as an experiment as a military team and compiled results. """
""" Ed Dames Uh we were able we were we perceived massive global weather changes that that preclude growing crops. The vicissitudes of these weather changes will preclude growing crops the way we normally do.
We'll no longer be in North America at least. The crops will have to be grown in habitats that are controlled.
um a a a tremendous uh problem with uh epidemics and pandemics uh diseases in uh in third world countries uh particularly because uh ozone it appears that ozone the ozone problem is increasing the mutation rate stressing the earth's immune system if you will and causing microorganisms to mutate much faster than vaccines can be made to keep up with them causing a lot of deaths. We're perceiving a bovine AIDS that kills a lot of babies. It's uh it's transmitted by smatropic growth hormone, the dairy men's association, the needle that they use to inject this growth hormone to uh increase milk production. """
""" Art Bell Yes. """
""" Ed Dames That also will uh transmit this boine aids that will uh not affect adults as much as infants who lack the immune system uh uh to handle it.
Um, and actually the situation gets uh grimmer after that. """
""" Art Bell
Grimmer. Uh, all right.
"""
""" Ed Dames I am not a sensitive any more than anybody else, but I watch the news. """
""" Art Bell I've done this show, you know, newsoriented program for 11 years now, this particular program. So, every day I do homework and I watch the news and I have come to coin or use a word called the quickening. I call it that. Whether it's economic, political, social, in every single area of human uh endeavor, events appear to be accelerating toward I don't know what, but I can just feel it. And so I've called it the quickening and it kind of gone on.
Do you feel what I feel? To me, it's just the hair stands up on the back of my neck, the other shoe about to fall kind of feeling the acceleration of events. Is there anything to that? """
""" Ed Dames I think we're in for a lot of character building opportunities as a as as corporately world body. One of uh my best remote viewers I took the best and the brightest from the military team and and employed them in my my company and one of them is still on active duty with the Defense Intelligence Agency. I uh he I he has uh an uh an explanation and well actually he has a good description of what he and those of us on the team feel is happening. Uh the Wankl engine as you know does it needs a governor on it.
It's a rotary engine. """
""" Art Bell Yeah. Oh yes I have.
It needs a governor because uh it starts to accelerate out of control and it explodes. """
""" Ed Dames Right. and he feels that uh the earth that uh the globe is in that sort of a a modality now that is accelerating out of control without the governor and then it's going to go bam. So I I tend to agree with that.
Um most psychics when you talk to them uh will say here is my prophecy but it does not have to be. In other words, a change in human behavior will produce a change in the thread of time in the future. Do you uh subscribe to that?
Many of my students who are scientists and doctors do ascribe to that. Uh I'm more pessimistic uh by nature having been a soldier for many years. Uh I don't think we're going to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps. I think that our our it's a finger and a dikeke approach to many things including ozone problem. Uh so I disagree. I think the situation is going to get grim and that we will not in fact uh rise to the occasion.
Um all right as you look into the collective unconscious uh I too um share that uh half empty glass of water view with you by the way but I'm not sure what lies upon the other side. I simply know that like the airplane halfway across the Pacific in the old days, the little red light saying point of no return, that's already on for humanity.
Uh we are going to go on to whatever is next. I just don't know what is next. """
""" Art Bell Maybe you do. """
""" Ed Dames I really don't uh I don't think that this is necessarily the forum to to discuss that. It it involves uh things that we perceive in the outy years and uh they're fairly esoteric. Uh and I I don't want to uh really as president of Scitec uh talk about those things now because they are sort of uh um off the wall. Let's say off the wall. """
""" Art Bell Yeah. """
""" Ed Dames There's something out there that's very exciting. However, uh we'll pay a heavy price. uh as a world community to to get there. Like I say, a lot of character building opportunities uh will be out there for our children and our grandchildren. """
""" Art Bell Uh well, it's nice to know that we'll have grandchildren anyway. """
""" Ed Dames Some of us will. Yes. """
""" Art Bell Uhhuh. Um regarding actual physical earth changes, geographic major earth changes, are they coming? Uh they are. """
""" Ed Dames
That was a yes.
"""
""" Art Bell [clears throat]
Uh, look, you've been really kind to come on the air with me um this morning.
You did it on very short notice. I want to give you an opportunity to plug your company. You want to plug it in some way? """
""" Ed Dames Oh, I think our I think that our success on the Uni Bomber project will probably uh do that for us. Although I I thank you for the opportunity. Uh we're I have a training program where I the very few select people a year are accepted into our Beverly Hills training office for nine days, an intensive one-on-one.
There's only one student per course and uh we teach these skills to those students.
""" Art Bell Um, if there are any of your listeners who think that they might want to do that, uh, they can communicate with me on uh, and and so they could, uh, they could write you a letter and they could, uh, they could in essence apply. """
""" Ed Dames Yes. If they wanted to. """
""" Art Bell All right. Well, uh, Major, it's been a pleasure having you on the program. I appreciate you're clearing up uh, an awful lot of things that I didn't understand about the kind of work that you do. """
""" Ed Dames Yeah, I think they also the point where they were the researchers experiencing only 15 to 20% accuracy that that's an un those are untrained people in a laboratory environment. The my corporate team has 80% to 90% accuracy uh at the end of 3 days.
80 to 90% after 3 days.
That's right. That's how effective the that's what your tax dollars paid for.
That's degree of effectiveness. As professional officers, we would not have stuck with something that was uh ineffective. uh for that many years this thing really worked.
""" Art Bell Well, in a way though, what you're doing makes what Orwell uh predicted and wrote about uh pale by comparison. I I wonder what kind of world uh Major Dame's world would be. """
""" Ed Dames It'll be a different place, that's for certain. """
""" Art Bell Major,
I want to thank you again. Thank you for being here. You take care. Uh there you have it, everybody. That's Major Ed Dames of Scitec. He
took it from the military into the private sector. And remember, Mr. Uniomber, he's checking his mail.
We'll be back. """
""" Art Bell You're listening to ArtBell Somewhere in Time tonight,
featuring a replay of Coast to Coast A.M. from December 7th, 1995.
[music]
For the last hour, we interviewed Major Ed Danes, US Army retired.
He set up the uh US Army's US government spy psychic spy program corrected and went far beyond ABC's Nightline
[music]
program of November 28th. It's all about remote viewing and perhaps being inside the mind looking through the eyes of others.
That was last hour. I just [music] got a fax. I'll read it to you. Dear Mr. Bell.
My name is Dr. Rod Lewis. I am director of the Network for Scientific Intelligence and the editor and publisher of NSI's periodical, the CE Chronicles.
Two years ago, we published an expose on the government's use of psychics in intelligence operations. The project has recently received national attention, is now known as Stargate. We focused on the role of Major Ed Dames, president of the remote viewing company SciTitec. Major Dames was instrumental in the devel development of this program along with Colonel John Alexander, now head of the non-lethal weapons program at Los Alamos National Labs and General Albert Stubelbine, former head of Army Intelligence Command. As with most stories of this genre, what you are hearing is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. I have done a number of radio shows on the subject. Would
happy to be be happy to be a guest on yours.
And uh so without letting any grass grow uh under my uh tail end, I immediately phoned up uh Dr. Lewis. He's on the line. He'll be with us in a moment.
Now we go to Houston, Texas and Dr. uh Rod Lewis. Doctor, welcome. """
""" Rod Lewis Good morning, Art. A little groggy. I I did not have any intention of being on your show tonight. This morning, as you know, I was uh asleep until about 1:00 our time, so I'm still a little groggy. """
""" Art Bell All right. Well, when you get a chance, grab a cup of coffee.
Okay. Um, you heard the interview, I take it. Um, probably in and out of sleep with the major.
"""
""" Rod Lewis That's correct. """
""" Art Bell Um, would you like to characterize what you heard? Do you think what you heard uh you would regard as gener uh generally accurate? """
""" Rod Lewis Sure. The information that has been brought forth before uh recently on the Stargate project. Now, when we did our story and let me just preface a little bit uh my history. I am the director of an organization called the network for scientific intelligence and basically what we do is we monitor uh what's generally called the black projects or gray projects. """
""" Art Bell Mhm. """
""" Rod Lewis And uh what Mr. Dames has been involved in. We have been tracking for the last two years and we did a expose about two years ago in our publication called the CEU Chronicles and it was all about remote viewing, right?
And we did get some attention. Uh it wasn't widely recognized and published as it is now. But Tokyo Broadcasting did a complete uh series. is they were doing a uh television show uh based loosely on Howard Blum's book out there which he referred to a group of people called the aviary and u oddly enough Dale Graph being one of them but uh uh to make a long story short we picked up on this story and uh developed it and learned some very interesting things and generally what's being said how this project Stargate is being characterized it's fairly accurate. Although there were many things that uh for for obvious reasons Mr. Dames had left out that we have knowledge of that you know about.
That's correct. """
""" Art Bell All right, let's uh begin by defining Stargate. What is Stargate besides a very intriguing name uh that reminds me of the movie I saw by the same name. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, I find that very odd that that they did name it Stargate. Uh because this was something of course that that uh the movie didn't come out until two years ago or a year and a half ago. And uh this was a project that was started back in the 70s, this remote viewing project. But essentially Stargate was the the military the DoD Department of Defense's version of what Mr. Dames has taken and is doing privately now which is using uh psychics natural psychics and then training them to uh perform remote viewing and originally all the applications were uh of a military nature. However, while they were performing the remote viewing exercises, they claimed that they were being blocked by external agents. Now, I'm not sure exactly what that means, but they alluded to something to do with UFOs. """
""" Art Bell Oh. Uh, that was not mentioned by the major. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, for obvious reasons, he said that it could adversely affect his company and he uh even used the term uh of it being off the wall.
That's true.
But let me let me just read something that that we had quoted here in our article called the aviary, the aquarium, and esquetology. And for those who don't know what esquetology is, that's just a uh politically correct term for the end of the world, which apparently the national security establishment for obvious reasons is very interested in. """
""" Art Bell But uh anyway, we we uh quote here uh he claims that Scitec has performed these projects to date. Now, these are some of the projects that that Scitec was engaged in. He calls these things Enigma penetration. the Tangaska event, Enigma penetration, Soviet Phobos 2 spacecraft imaged anomaly that has to do with the Phobos 2 probe that was went dead outside of Mars orbit. Okay.
um uh projected technologies, advanced deep space propulsion systems, clandestine Iraqi biological weapons facilities, a reook at the KAL flight 007 shootown, atmospheric ozone depletion, projected consequences and remedial technologies and the St.
Xuperty crash site.
And uh we go on to say here that um Mr. Dames also made statements regarding UFOs during a phone conversation with Dan Smith. It says remote viewing of many UFO events are blocked by an external agency. It says UFO type viewing encounters two types of entities, aliens and angels. Angels or excuse me, aliens are more physical with quasi physical type craft. They are in trouble and need our resources which they take. And if humans are involved, they receive mental impressions to confuse what is really going on. And this has to do with the alien abduction phenomenon. I think he's referring to this. """
""" Art Bell Doctor, in in what area is your doctorate? """
""" Rod Lewis Uh my doctorate is in dentistry and I also have a master's degree in psychology. """
""" Art Bell Mhm. Uh what in the world led you from that to this? """
""" Rod Lewis Well, actually my of course my background is is uh virtually all researchoriented. Uh I I did practice clinical uh dentistry for about 10 years and I decided to take a one-year sbatical to do some research and writing because I've always had a passion and a love for journalism and I just kind of uh fell into this thing and uh it my life has never been the same. """
""" Art Bell Makes sense. """
""" Rod Lewis Um, all right. You're right. He only uh and very carefully uh sort of confirmed between the lines a lot of what um Gordon Michael Scallion uh has been saying regarding earth changes. He just rendered a simple yes and um to a great amount of pain before any gain for the human race or even the end. """
""" Art Bell Um, this is an area where you apparently know more or are willing to talk about more than he was. Is that correct? """
""" Rod Lewis That's correct. """
""" Art Bell So talk. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, it appears that the the national security establishment, and I'm talking about all the IA agencies,
""" Art Bell the CIA, the DIA, right? """
""" Rod Lewis Uh, the rest of them, the Office of Naval Intelligence, etc., etc., believe it [clears throat] or not are very interested in this uh I guess as you term it the quickening. """
""" Art Bell I do. Yes. """
""" Rod Lewis Their their their reasoning for this is that it is the end of the world as a matter of national security. So they're very interested in what's coming uh up around the pike. """
""" Art Bell I'm not sure national security even serves uh serves what will occur properly. """
""" Rod Lewis Of course it's national security. It's the world security. It's the end. And if if you look at at what has happened over recent history, uh you see an inflection point right about 80 87 88 89 >uh you had the collapse of the Berlin wall. You had a complete change in strategic policy. You've had a shift away from uh uh international strategic problems between the United States and the Soviet Union to a coop more cooperative environment. And I think what happened is at that inflection point in ' 88 or '89 their models completely changed and this was partly due to a to a new view and it has to do with what they call chaos theory >and this was something that was promoted
by James Glick in a book called chaos the making of a new science and this completely changed perceptions and I think what they learned through nonlinear dynamics and chaos theory is that we are rapidly approaching a point because of our uh presence in our activity on earth. I'm talking about human activity that we have upset the balance of things to such a degree that we are moving from stability to chaos.
And if you follow the the theory of Gaia uh earth being sort of a a conscious or living organism that it that it behaves much like an organism does and we are sort of parasites on a larger organism and only the parasites do one of two things. they kill the host or they exist in a symbiotic relationship.
So if you look at human beings being about the size of viral particles to the earth uh we certainly are not in a symbiotic relationship that only leaves one conclusion and perhaps the earth may be having what you could call an immune reaction to our presence. So I think that that this model, this concept of Gaia has really got the national security establishment very concerned and they're doing everything within their power to learn more about this phenomenon. And I think that these things that we were seeing in terms of uh natural catastrophes, the possibility of the outbreaks of plagues, uh commentary impacts, there are just a number of things that I think they see
as possible scenarios and they're getting ready as quickly as possible and that's where we're seeing a very radical shift in our military operations.
And uh there's a there's much going on in terms of uh we hear about the patriot movement, the militias being formed.
"""
""" Art Bell That's right.
And uh what they call the new world order. And these people are very concerned that uh in and how they're reading it is that the military is preparing for some sort of uh major change and major uh takeover uh of the population of the United States in response possibly to some sort of cataclysm. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, that would be a natural thing. In other words, we have organizations like FEMA, which which so many people fear.
But on the other hand, if there were a great natural catastrophe, if California popped off into the ocean along with a lot of the West or something of that order, well, I had a hard time with when people were discussing the the new world order, they alluded quite a bit to uh this was a a plot by the Illuminati or the Bilderberers or different uh select groups of people who were out to take the world over. But my research indicates that this is more preemptive than anything that they know something that we don't know. They know something of a catastrophic nature that we don't know is coming. That's right.
And they're making preparations.
"""
""" Art Bell
All right, I've got you now. Uh why the Night Line show the other night?
Why in the middle of all the news about Bosnia would Ted Cppel take time out and talk about and reveal uh the government's um involvement in this sort of thing and then uh sort of wrap it up by saying, "Well, we did, but we're not all that interested in it anymore. We're turning it over to the private sector. we're getting out of the biz, that sort of thing. What motivations do you see for for that program? I mean, obviously, if it is as serious as you say, they're very much they're still very much into the thick of it, right? """
""" Rod Lewis Well, they can't unload it on us all at one time and and just say, uh,
well, folks, we we believe that California is literally going to slide off into the ocean. uh what like you said, what are you going to do with 15 million people that you know would decide to evacuate California all at one time? I think what's happening is in fact we've seen a number of um uh shows recently. Now I I catalog all these things and I noticed uh in the past two years there have been five shows about a commentary Impact. """
""" Art Bell Yes. """ """
""" Rod Lewis One was on the Simpsons, one was on Dr. Quinn Medicinewoman. uh one was on ancient prophecies, one was on sliders and uh I think there was something on NOVA. So there's been quite a bit of information given. Of course they don't come out and say this is the way it's going to happen, but they certainly are desensitizing us to the idea of some sort of catastrophe that may be looming in the near future.
So that's only one possibility. You know, we've seen movies, we've seen the movie Outbreak. They talk about uh a massive plague uh being released to some type. """
""" Art Bell As a matter of fact, it is interesting you would bring that up. Uh I'm hearing stories about a new disease in Nicaragua. """
""" Rod Lewis Exactly. """
""" Art Bell I'm hearing stories about a new disease that is jumping from horses to humans in Australia. All kinds of weird uh building information in these areas.
Uh, and I guess that goes back to your your theory of Earth and [clears throat] uh and and uh as human beings as leeches. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, I said parasite, but leech is a parasite, non symbiotic organism.
Yeah, there you go. """
""" Art Bell
but yeah, it's interesting that that you should mention that because we
we did we followed that story about the Nicaraguan outbreak and they're not really sure what it is. """
""" Rod Lewis They haven't identified it yet, but we have we have these hotspots around the world. We have the the Ebola virus and uh in Zire that popped up this past summer and there's just a lot of things I think they're really worried about and and they're telling us about it in the form of books like Lori Garrett's book the coming plague Richard Preston's book the hot zone we we saw the movie outbreak and by the way we have found that this uh they they alluded to this operation clean sweep which if there's any area of the United States that is biologically contaminated they basically go with a uh a a bomb of some type. It's it's not nuclear, but it's a fuel bomb.
Fuel air bomb and and wipe out. And that is true. We found out there there is such a thing as Operation Clean Sweep.
""" Art Bell There really is? """
""" Rod Lewis Yes. """
""" Art Bell
So, it wasn't just a movie.
"""
""" Rod Lewis No, it wasn't. It was what I call fiction based on fact.
""" Art Bell Uh that was one of the more frightening movies I'd ever seen, I thought, at the time that I saw it. And um I guess it is then being discovered by the people doing the kind of work the major is doing. And when they have when they looked into this collective consciousness and look down line a little bit, they're seeing something awful. """
""" Rod Lewis That's right. That's right. And in fact, there is um there is a department within the CIA, and I can't mention the the person's name, but if if uh anybody would like to speak with me about it, I can give you the person's name. He is the directorate of uh science and technology and he is a member of this what we call the aviary.
""" Art Bell This is the uh what is it what is that an acronym for? """
""" Rod Lewis Well, it's it's not an acronym for anything. It's we just call him the aviary because they all go by bird names. And some of the members of this group are Bruce Makabe and he is known as seagull. Aloff, which is owl.
Dale Graph, which is Raven. Jack Verona, which we don't know what his bird name is. Richard Dodie, that's a familiar name from London Molton How he met, he's with AFOSI and met with London Molton How at Kirtland Air Force Base. His name is Falcon. Christopher Green is Blue J.
Robert Collins is Condor.
Ernie Keller House is Hawk. Scott CB Jones is Chicky. And Bill Moore, we don't know his name either. And uh John Alexander is Pelican. And John Alexander by the way is also on the board of Scitec along with General Albert Stubble who is the for """
""" Announcer Premier Radio Networks presents Artbell, Somewhere in Time. Tonight's program originally aired December 7th, 1995. """
""" Art Bell Top of the morning, everybody. We're interviewing Dr. Rod Lewis, director of the network for scientific intelligence and the editor and publisher of NSI's [music] periodical, the CE chronicles. He's responding in part to an interview we did last hour [music] uh subject remote viewing and we are continuing uh along with that. Now we may get the phone lines open this half hour coming up shortly.
All right. Back now to Dr. Rod Lewis.
Dr. Lewis, are you there? """
""" Rod Lewis Yes, I am. """
""" Art Bell All right. Well, again, thank you for being up at this hour. Uh, here's a fact referring to you. How does this guy know he's not dabbling in the occult? He seems to think it's some kind of high-tech. How does he know this? Isn't it just refined fortunetelling? """
""" Rod Lewis Well, as a matter of fact, we were just going to comment on that because Ed Dames or Mr. D Major James used the term occult and he said that this scared a lot of people and he also alluded to that uh he was able to train these natural psychics using very specific techniques. Now what we found was that these techniques are just a uh a reconstitution of the black magic rituals used by Alistister Crowley.
So it's black magic. Well, uh, arose by any other name, I guess you could say.
Let me let me read something here. Um, now this it gets very complicated because a lot of this ties in to the psychotronics research that's going on at Los Alamos National Laboratories. """
""" Art Bell Okay, but but before you do, uh, it's a it's a non-trivial distinction. In other words, uh, black magic, the occult, the dark forces to the people in the audience right now listening who are religious and there are many, right? """
""" Rod Lewis Uh, it is a non-trivial distinction. """
""" Art Bell Now, is it science or is it really the dark side? And if it is the dark side, then then the facts makes a good point. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, I I think it's science that we don't understand. and and we're dealing with something unfortunately like Madame Chere when she discovered radioactivity back in the 1800s. Unfortunately, we did a lot of things with radiation we shouldn't have and we learn through uh a lot of trial and error how dangerous that can be because we don't understand uh the the true nature of what we're working with. And I think that's what we're dealing with here is we're probably playing the part of the sorcerer's apprentice and we may be dabbling in something that we don't have a full grasp and understanding of the gravity in the things that we are dealing with. """
""" Art Bell Well, it's never stopped us in the past. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, it never has. And unfortunately, we pay a very high price for for that type of uh that error that uh people tend to engage in. Um but but what I wanted to read again was another quote from uh the article that we did called the aviary of the aquarium and esquetology and this was something a letter that uh a researcher by the name of Ray Boscher received from two workers out at Los Alamos National Laboratories that's working on this psychotronics research and it has to do with with scitec remote viewing and the the rest of this. He says, "Devulging this information was the result of a moral dilemma when these two two individuals, both Christians, became alarmed at the
course of their research efforts into psychotronic weapons was taken under the direction of their unnamed supervisors.
They described an obsessive effort to contact and attempt to control what they referred to as nonhuman intelligences or NHIS and to harness these NHIS for military and intelligence purposes.
Figures figures every uh every science fiction movie that one can ever see of this sort always is in that realm. In other words, they've always got the the dark colonel who is trying to take some sort of new science and apply it to a weapons system. And I guess it's a nature of the military to do that kind of thing. So whether it's a movie or real life, it does happen.
Well, that's what our organization is all about. Art we uh we work very closely with the uh Steven after Goods Federation of American Scientists and uh we're very concerned about about these new discoveries. We believe we're on the brink of some major discoveries in the area what they generally refer to as the new physics which will give us a very good understanding of how parasychological phenomenon work.
Unfortunately, it's being acquired and being implemented by the military establishments uh much for unoured purposes opinion. """
""" Art Bell Okay. You said new physics tetrahedral """
""" Rod Lewis that's part of it. Tetrahedral physics is one aspect. uh chaos theory, nonlinear dynamics, uh uh a lot of theories based on David Bow, uh the holographic universe, a book that was written by Michael, uh excuse me, yeah, it's Michael Talbot. Uh and we're beginning a quantum physics that has to do with quantum and and tetrahedral physics. """
""" Art Bell All right, I've got a facts here unsigned. Not surprising.
Dear Mr. Bellen guest. I worked on the remote sensing project at UCSD where they were working looking at the neural networks to operate jet fighting equipment.
Does that sound like a project you've heard about? """
""" Rod Lewis Well, this this is something that we've worked on in our spare time. We uh we have a neural network artificial intelligence program. These are basically software programs that can teach themselves. They can learn through example, learn by training. And uh yes, this is something that's part of this this new physics. """
""" Art Bell Would you be willing to take a few uh phone calls from listeners? """
""" Rod Lewis Sure. """
""" Art Bell All right, we'll get to that in a second. And one more question for you.
Can you ask ask your guest about the Tangaska? Is it Tangaska incident? Was it really a Tesla experiment gone bad? """
""" Rod Lewis I don't believe it was. My my research indicates that Tangaska was an impactor.
uh go back and read Duncan Steele's book rogue asteroids and doomsday comets and uh he explains the Tesusky event and I I I have to tend to agree with his assessment that it was an impactor an asteroid or something comet. """
""" Art Bell All right, let's let's try.
All right, good. Let's uh try the phones and see where we go. Um east of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. Hello. No, you're not. First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr.
First time callers, area 7027271222.
Uh would you please uh turn your radio off? Number one. Um okay, good. Tim, uh only your first name and where are you calling from? """
""" Caller #1 I'm calling from Phoenix, Arizona. """
""" Art Bell Phoenix. All right. """
""" Caller #1 Yeah. I just wanted to talk to the doctor. """
""" Art Bell
Go ahead.
"""
""" Caller #1 Yes. Um I just wanted to know uh what some of his qualifications were. """
""" Art Bell Well, we went over that at the beginning of the hour. """
""" Caller #1
Yeah. And and I'd be happy to review them. I um uh I have a bachelor's
degree in in biology and and chemistry. I have a master's degree in clinical psychology. Uh I attended the University of Texas Dental School at San Antonio.
Graduated 1983, practiced in 1991. Uh I'm a full-time journalist now. I'm a member of the Federation of American Scientists, the National Association of Science Writers, and Investigative Editors and Reporters.
That ought to do it. East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. Hello.
"""
""" Caller #2 Yeah, excuse me. I got to dive at the radio. """
""" Art Bell Uh, dive at the radio. All right. Always dive at the radio, folks. Right away when you get on the air, we have a delay system here. """
""" Caller #1 Hello again. """
""" Art Bell Yes. Where are you, sir? """ """
""" Caller #2 Uh, Madison, Wisconsin.
All right. Uh, what I'm wondering about is if alien beings or or out of the body entities are capable of getting into the picture, how do we know we're not being fed wrong information? and uh I'll get off and the answer comes. """
""" Art Bell Thank you. Sure. Good question. How do we know how are we able to verify the validity of the information we get through these kinds of sources? """
""" Rod Lewis Well, we're not and and that's part of the problem is that uh as as Mr. Dames pointed out, uh the these people aren't always correct. And also if you you talk with people who claim to be victims of the alien abduction phenomenon uh they are uh fed usually constant streams of information particularly uh about esquetology or the end of the world and many of these events never come true.
So, you're right that that that there doesn't seem to be any consistency in in the veracity of what people are being told as far as uh uh their communications or or whatever they're engaged in. """
""" Caller #2
Okay. The retired major didn't seem inclined to go much into the UFO aspect
and I understand that you are and um uh your qualifications are um very impressive. Your academic background very impressive. Dr. John Mack at Harvard uh has sort of been uh uh dragged uh across the bottom of the ship academically for his look see into these sorts of areas. Uh aren't you afraid of being barnacled? """
""" Rod Lewis Well, no, not really because I'm not really affiliated any longer with any academic institution. Uh and I'm not in clinical practice. So, uh I'm not sure, you know, what what they could do to me other than maybe um criticize my sanity.
But no. Well, colleagues colleagues can level some pretty uh vicious criticism.
Sure. And I'm always happy to discuss the matter with them and and I don't I don't have all the answers, right? """
""" Caller #2 That's for sure. """
""" Rod Lewis I'm consider myself a relative newcomer to the field and sort of a novice at all this. But I certainly think there's a lot of things that we don't understand. And certainly science does have a uh a habit of changing rather drastically opinions about uh how things work. one being uh for for a number of years I can remember as a as a elementary school student and a junior high school student being told that uh uh the dinosaurs died because of climate changes and this happened very slowly and over millions and millions of years and now we hear about the KT event which they think that perhaps what happened was a large impactor hit somewhere around the Yucatan Peninsula
and it was all over in a matter of days.
So science does have a habit of changing. Uh it's just a matter of uh pursuing it academically and not not trying to get carried away and and into wild speculations but using the scientific method and and pursuing it that way.
What is interesting to me is uh and I don't mind I've been delving into these areas for years and uh colleagues other talk show hosts use it as a way to take shots at me. I don't care. Um but um for somebody with you know strong academic credentials uh I can understand that uh you might have reason to worry uh John Mack professor Mack of course because of his affiliation with the institution >uh but still today things are changing doctor and now we've got night line and we've got a million programs and a million movies and a million mainstream media beginning to talk about all of this. Is is this all one big orchestration?
I don't know so much that it's orchestration. I think it's just a matter of the natural evolution of of the scientific process. And uh I think principally because of the computer that we're able to model a lot of things that we haven't been able to model before.
And I think this has been a wonderful instrument in terms of us being able to look into mathematical concepts, being able to look in sort of a a multi-dimensional way. Uh the technology is there. It's just that that our knowledge is is is so far lacking because principally we're still rooted in this this idea of a Newtonian universe. And that is that is radically changing. And and they're calling this the new science >beginning to crumble.
It's beginning to crumble. It's it's going to be a major paradigm shift and I think as we get further into the quote information age, we're going to completely uh rewrite history and we're going to have a totally different world view. """
""" Art Bell All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. Hi. """
""" Caller #3 Yes. Uh who do you think is going to win the next Tyson fight? """
""" Art Bell All right. Uh good question. Any uh insights? """
""" Rod Lewis I I have no idea. [laughter] Nor do I nor do I care. """
""" Voice East of the Rockies. You're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. """
""" Caller Hi Art. This is a killer show tonight.
""" Art Bell Glad you're enjoying it.
Hey, I just wanted to ask the doctor if there's any relationship between um
what we're talking about here and HARP. Is it a program to to stop these changes or to accelerate them or what?
""" Art Bell
It is a good question. Where are you?
We devoted a whole issue.
Hold on a second, doctor. Um where are you caller?
Scottdale, Arizona.
""" Art Bell
All right. Good. Uh we did a whole show on HARP the other night. um uh as a
matter of fact with Dr. Nick Begich and he wrote Angels Don't Play This Harp. So what do you know about harp, doctor? """
""" Rod Lewis I know quite a bit about it. In fact, I've I've spoken with uh Dr. Begitch. Uh we we discussed it. Uh he he's very conversant, very well versed in harp. He knows uh considerably more than I do.
He's he's probably the leading expert.
But we did a issue on HARP back in January. We were one of the first uh publications to come out with very comprehensive information about HARP.
It's a very interesting project and we're not sure what to make out of it.
We don't really know the reason that exists other than to say we are quite concerned again they may be dealing with things that they don't know what the long-term impact. Anytime you start uh messing with the weather and and heating the ionosphere uh there may be some things unexpectedly that may happen. Well, are they doing that? Are they messing, as you put it, with the weather? """
""" Art Bell Uh, I Well, they've stated that that's part of the project. """
""" Rod Lewis Okay. I hadn't heard that. I heard the original uh charter was to heat the ionosphere. Um, not necessarily to produce weather changes, but to to try and affect in some way the ionosphere or the way it reflects radio or whatever, and to look for underground tunnels and bunkers. That's what I heard. """
""" Art Bell Right. Uh but weather modification was one of the uh in fact they they called local weather modification one of the the objectives. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, you know, I talked to Alaskans.
We're on the air all over Alaska right right now. """
""" Art Bell And the Alaskans are telling me it's cold as hell. That's normal. But there's no snow on the ground. There's no snow virtually in Fairbanks and Anchorage and all the places where there ought to be snow, there isn't. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, there's no doubt about it, Arthur.
the world the global weather situation is is changing and and I'm not I'm not sure why people are so surprised at this. I think what it was is for the last 50 years historically we've had relatively stable weather. I mean the earth's climate is is very very uh variable and extremely variable and unpredictable. And I think uh uh what we're what we experienced from about 1940 to 1990 roughly was a fairly stable period in in the earth's climate and and this is abruptly coming to an end and we're seeing changes in weather. We're seeing changes in geology. """
""" Art Bell We are """
""" Rod Lewis and uh I'm not sure """
""" Art Bell because these everything is in effect is stabilizing which is another word for chaos. """
""" Rod Lewis Right. Exactly. We're moving from that boundary of stability to uh the normal actually I think the normal situation is is a a a sort of chaotic environment. Uh but but the weather situation uh if you go back as early as the late 1800s we had a mini ice age in Europe uh in fact in the United States there was the what they called the summer that never was where we had uh basically no growing season. So we we just may be um coming upon on something that that for a long period of time we had stability for the past 50 years and now we're just moving back into a more normal pattern of variability. Um when you refer to human beings uh in in the way you did earlier um would you
think that that is or the process of acceleration we're now experiencing is a result of um so many more human beings being on the planet in other words uh function of numbers or our behavior or I'm reaching here trying to come up with a reason for what seems to be occurring. """
""" Art Bell Well, I follow you and I think it's two things. I think number one, it's numbers. Uh, optimally, the the the number of human beings on Earth has has stayed within a narrow narrow range of between 500 million and 1.5 billion. """
""" Rod Lewis And right around 1900, because of the introduction of antibiotics particularly, we had that logarithmic uh growth spiral in human population.
And now we're 5 1/2 billion people. Now, in and of itself, that's not necessarily bad. Although you begin to place tremendous strains on the resources of Earth. """
""" Art Bell That's correct. Right now, but we also have technology. """
""" Art Bell Listen, we're near the top of the hour.
What I want to ask you is this. If the powers at B, wherever they are, who cares? If they concluded through remote viewing or um psychic abilities or whatever that the end was coming and the reason was because there are so many people on the planet, would they in your estimation take steps that would result in fewer people on the planet? """
""" Rod Lewis I believe they would. And I believe this has been a public policy established uh as early as 1962 with the Club of Rome position that there are just entirely too many people and in a conference in Cairo last November. """
""" Art Bell I recall. """
""" Rod Lewis Yeah. No, same thing. """
""" Art Bell Listen, we are at the top of the hour.
You want us there's a million calls here.
Sure. Sure. I'll be happy to to field some calls.
All right. Good. Let's field some calls then. Uh coming up next, uh we'll get more into the telephone.
[music]
So stay right where you are. It is a fascinating area. No question about it.
My guest is Dr. Rod Lewis [music] from Houston. And I guess it's just one of those kinds of nights. That's why they call it open line unscreened spontaneous talk [music] radio. We'll be right back.
You're listening to ArtBell Somewhere in Time tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from December 7th,
[music] 1995. [music] Happy heat.
You're listening to Arkbell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from December 7th,
It is spontaneous radio, the fest of it as it occurs. I'm Art Bell.
It's good to be here this morning. My guest is Dr. Rod Lewis. He follows Major Ed Dames. Subject
[music]
remote viewing and I guess a little beyond. Isn't it fascinating?
All right, I think this sums it up very well. Uh, art, the subject of remote viewing is so fascinating. I'm reminded of books by science fiction author Philip K. Dick, such as Yubick, where there were agencies which employed sigh talents to foretell or change the future. Other agencies employing anti-sigh talents to nullify the sigh talents. Once again, it may be that science fiction may be becoming science fact. Yet, in this case, it seems awfully far out there, fascinating, yet if what seems to be around the corner is true, somewhat scary as well. Uh, does that sum it up pretty well? """
""" Rod Lewis It sure does, Art. And let me um if you wouldn't mind if I I kind of dropped a bombshell on your audience. I I didn't intend to go public with this. Um, They love bombshells. """
""" Rod Lewis Okay. Well, this this is going to be a first that anybody's heard. Uh we were going to publish it uh in our next issue of the CE Chronicles, but I'll go ahead and and throw out a teaser.
uh all these things we're hearing about aliens, the especially the alien autopsy film. We have the inside information on what that's all about. But there is a concerted effort going on right now to convince the general public that uh extraterrestrials exist, that they're real, that they're here. Um the alien autopsy film was a production. """
""" Art Bell Uh unfortunately, the the body is not human. That's correct. But it is not extraterrestrial and it has nothing to do with Roswell.
But it was designed by Ray Santelli and his Merlin group specifically to introduce to the people, the general public, the idea that uh aliens do exist. """
""" Rod Lewis Ray Santilli is not a filmmaker. """
""" Art Bell I'm sorry. """
""" Rod Lewis Ray Santilly is not a filmmaker. """
""" Rod Lewis Uh I believe he is. Well, I think that he well u not a so much a filmmaker I think as he was hunting he claims he was hunting uh footage of Elvis or some such when he ran into this fellow who had this footage. """
Well, let me tell you the story. Two years ago, there was a meeting in Creststone, Colorado, which was attended by 50 people. I was contacted by a person very high up in the UFO community. This was two years ago.
Mhm.
That they were in possession of a body.
And the question was, "Well, what type of body are you talking about? Are you talking about uh extraterrestrial?" They said, "No." I said, "Are you talking about nonhuman?" They said, "Yes." I said, "Well, is it uh from from is it terrestrial?" And they said, "Yes." I said, "Well, who has it?" They said, "The Russians." In fact, they have a whole locker full of them.
What? And apparently this was part of a genetics ongoing genetics experiment that was being done by the Russians under the opices of the Russian um government for approximately 50 years.
And they had a whole locker full of these these bodies and they were selling them to raise hard currency for I think that the number that was quoted to me was a million dollars. """
""" Art Bell Holy mackerel. """
""" Rod Lewis Okay. So, my I was approached and asked, uh, Dr. Lewis, what do you think would be the best way to get people to believe that extraterrestrials exist? If we had a body, what would be the best way to show this body? I said, well, I don't know. I said, I I assume through a film or something like that. And by George, two years later, we have this alien autopsy film turn up. And my guess and this is this is not I don't have any hard documentation but my best guess is it went something like this. The group at Creststone basically formed a limited partnership. They were contacted or arranged this through Ray Santelli. Ray Santelli bought the body or the limited
partnership bought the body. They made the film. Um Ray Santelli turned around sold it to Fox and of course sold a 100,000 plus videotape. So he recovered his investment on it but it had nothing to do with Roswell but it it showed that um >okay with what motive not on Santilli's part forget that the people who wanted uh who came to you originally person said what would be the best way to do this what motive would that person have >well again it goes back uh to the research that we've done is there is a group called the aviary and their responsibility is to control information about extraterrestrials and UFOs. You have to remember Art that this if this story ever broke if if they
""" Art Bell Okay. But yes, but to to inculcate this in in uh our um greater intelligence or subconscious for what reason? """
""" Rod Lewis Well, go back to the Brookings Institute study back in 1959. Basically, they said if you want to manipulate the psyche of any group of people, introduce them to a concept that's totally foreign, such as if uh let's say you have a a group of aboriges, you go in and you show them high technology and they think it's magic. And that way you can control and manipulate a society. You have to remember that that we have a film, a tape of a show called The Outer Limits that was done back in the 1950s. """
""" Art Bell I remember it well. """
""" Rod Lewis Okay. Mhm.
The episode was called The Architects of Fear. The theme was there was a secret cabal of people, 12 or 13 people that got together because we were on the verge of a nuclear holocaust. And they were saying, "Well, how can we stop this?" Well, the only way that they figured we could they could stop it was to stage an alien contact.
Sound familiar?
Also, on Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Yes. Have your listeners go out and get the episode about Kais. And basically what what this episode was, the Klingan Empire was on the verge of anarchy and chaos on civil breakdown. They brought back their messiah Kais in the form of a clone, but the people believed it was the real Kais. And the idea was to have him as the moral leader and have the political structure working with him to ensure a stable society. """
""" Art Bell This is beginning to make the Kennedy assassination sound simple.
It is >um east of the Rockies. You're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. Hello. """
""" Caller Yes, sir. This is Billy from uh South Lake Houston. """
""" Art Bell Uh oh. All right. Houston again. """
""" Caller You bet. Uh doctor, I was wondering if you're familiar with the Clear Lake Nassau Bay area here. """
""" Rod Lewis Yes. Uh, do you know of any uh remote viewing or psychic activity being used since we got all the major players? And um, you know, it's a shame KTR dropped this at 4:00. So, everybody, they could possibly get some use out of this, not going to be able to hear it. Well, I know that John Alexander and Ed Dames have been to Houston and they have been at NASA and there was report there was a report uh last year that they were involved in some remote viewing experiments of the Mars Observer and we did a story on Ed Dame's remote viewing of what happened to the Mars Observer, right? """ """ Caller Um would the some of these companies be using the remote viewing against each other since you know it's so competitive and you know this whole area is real tight? """
""" Rod Lewis
Well there there's evidence that um that Dupont Corporation had sent some
of its top executives to Robert Monroe and the Monroe Institute which was doing something similar to Ed Dames >but using out of body uh uh astral projection techniques. All right, caller. Uh, by the way, in the Houston area, uh, a lot of people move over to, uh, Hudat in New Orleans and continue to listen to the program. """
""" Caller
Uh, what's that, uh, frequency?
"""
""" Rod Lewis Hint hint. I think it's 1280.
1280. """
""" Caller Well, you sure made my night. Thank you, sir. """
""" Rod Lewis Have a good morning. And, um, I was privileged to interview Dr. Monroe before he passed away. Uh, truly a fascinating man. again uh you know there was an article in the Wall Street Journal about the Monroe Institute and he uses a device called the Hemisync to induce a out-of- body experience and some of his clients I I believe uh the Department of Defense sent a number of people there including John Alexander to uh learn uh how to do out-of- body experiences plus like I said top executives from Dupont Corporation.
Well, when I saw the night line program the other night, um I you know this whole Roswell Sakuro business, right?
Um the government of course originally said um it's flying saucer. Then they said it's a weather balloon. Then for many years, decades, they said nothing.
Then all of a sudden they came out and said, "Well, we lied. It was a different kind of balloon." """
""" Ros Lewis
Well, I believe them. Oddly enough, I I believe that 90% Maybe. So, but in
in a way, the program the other night on Night Line reminded me of that explanation. It's like all of a sudden here we are announcing, "Yes, our government has been doing this kind of work, but we're not doing it now." """
""" Caller Right.
Bologoney. Bologoney. If it is leading in the kind of serious areas that uh you and the major talked about, how could they not be doing it?
"""
""" Rod Lewis Oh, well, they are. In fact, Stan Freriedman uh and Larry King's Area 51 special, he said, quote, "The government spends 34 billion dollars a year on black projects." """
""" Art Bell Yes. """
""" Rod Lewis Half of which are going into quote psychological research. All right. Aka parasychological research. """
""" Art Bell Right. The unbelievable rapidly becomes the believable. West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis in Houston.
""" Caller Hi, this is Steve in San Diego. """
""" Art Bell Hi, Steve. """
""" Caller Hi. and um and I have uh I have a degree uh at UCSD in cognitive science. Um we uh study the the nature of intelligence and uh I focused um specifically uh in trying trying to simulate intelligence with computers and neural nets and things like that. Uh and so learn about intelligence. Now um uh our basic perspective on the whole department um came from a perspective of uh this uh you know telepathy and and these things generally that there there is no um evidence for anything um anything that anything transmitting that couldn't be transmitted via some physical uh medium of some sort. um you know be it air or uh you know some some some sort of uh physical medium and air being like sound
or light with with visual and and all sorts of other cues. Now my fiance is extremely perceptive and she and she and I we're getting married on New Year's Eve by the way. Uh she and I uh can we we've gotten to be really good at telling a lot of things and basically kind of reading each other's mind. We don't we don't call that reading each other's minds. We just call that knowing each other really well. """
""" Art Bell Excuse me. Where are you going? """
""" Caller Well, my point is um I'm really interested in how could you I'm very open. I'm I'm really curious about about this stuff. Um, how could you convince um somebody um with hard science in terms of double blind studies, research results uh available say on the internet or wherever else that we could look at at data that could support um in ter in terms of the nature of the studies and and the science behind behind it all to convince somebody um at at UCSD that that this is not um um like my fiance and I reading each other's minds when we just know each other really well. """
""" Art Bell All right. Well, um, I'll let you answer it, doctor. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, the thing is there's plenty of data. I mean, there there's no, uh, a der of hard data suggesting that that this type of, um, phenomenon exists. In fact, the the doctor who was the co-author of Stargate, I forgot her last name. It starts with a U, but she's a statistician, and she said that there's overwhelming statistical information or statistical data that that this exists, this phenomenon exists. I think it's just that there are very many people that are threatened by the idea that would put an end to premature end to their careers. Uh especially all those people that are they're grounded in um in Newtonian physics. It's not unlike the psychiatry field where for years and
years they had the psychoanalytic view and now we have a biobehavioral view. """
""" Rod Lewis I'm not so sure. I'm not threatened by it. Uh I said that to the major. He said himself it's going to be a very different kind of world. Now I don't know whether it's going to be good. He said that you can train somebody uh or a group to be 80 or 90% uh accurate. Now that means they can look at somebody or into somebody's mind uh or through their eyes or however it is done with remote viewing and if it's real it is going to change the world and I don't know whether it's going to be for the better or not. Well, go back and look at a movie. Uh, again, this was back in the 50s. It was called Forbidden Planet. """
""" Art Bell I saw it. """
""" Rod Lewis And yeah, the essence of it was there was an advanced civilization called the Krill. And they were able to command a energy force. """
""" Art Bell Yes. """
""" Rod Lewis With their their consciousness.
Unfortunately, what happened was it began to read their id. """
""" Art Bell The monster from
the monster,
[clears throat]
right? The monster from within.
Yes. Um, all right. Um, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. Hi.
""" Caller Hello. """
""" Art Bell Hello. Where are you? """
""" Caller I'm in Fort Vermillion, Alberta. """
""" Art Bell Alberta, Canada. All right. Go ahead. """
""" Caller Um, I'd like to talk a little bit on uh you were talking about entities of the unseen with IQ's or something. Uh, something like that. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, I was talking about the the work at Los Alamos Laboratories and their attempt to contact what they term nonhuman intelligences for military and intelligence purposes.
Um, I have a friend who's a Native American medicine man and um, he told me about a lot of what you're talking about. """
""" Caller Well, all right. Uh, there are many paths, aren't there, uh, doctor? Uh, perhaps to the same destin destination.
Could that be said? """
""" Rod Lewis I think so. It's uh, you know, we we we're now becoming uh, a little bit different in our approach. we're toward especially medical issues. Uh you know we talk about holistic medicine that you not you not only treat the disease but
[clears throat]
you treat the person as a whole. """
""" Caller Yes. """
""" Rod Lewis And there's a lot more involved in healing than just treating uh underlying biological disease. So """
""" Caller a lot of people are waking up to that one. """
""" Caller Right. """
""" Art Bell Uh so it's very much uh is very much the same really. Uh there are many paths to this uh to this knowledge or to this contact with whatever it is and we're not really sure are we exactly what it is that we're reaching out and sort of touching. """
""" Rod Lewis No. And I don't think we're going to know Art and and until we we look at it in hindsight. It's going to be 2020 hindsight.
""" Art Bell Yes. """
""" Caller And then it's going to be too late unfortunately. """
""" Art Bell Uh east of the Rockies. You're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. Where are you calling from please? This is John in Oklahoma City. Hi.
""" Caller Hey, good morning, Art. Hey, I I got a I I got a point I want to get across. If they could read minds like sort of like what you're saying, then this would kind of uh they could use this in like the court systems, wouldn't they? To where they can maybe uh leave little doubts of guilt and innocence. Well, I don't think that's where they want to go with this.
I think they're using it in in fact in the intelligence communities. I think that the purpose of this is to use it as sort of a a screening technique. In other words, if their viewers have certain impressions of certain events that are about to happen or have happened, then they can follow that up with hard intelligence. In other words, they can use their satellites or whatever intelligence techniques they use, but it it's more for a screen uh type of activity.
Is it possible in your view to remotely view uh not only across space but through time? """
""" Rod Lewis Yes. In fact, that's that's one of the things that we pointed out that uh uh what they call enigma penetration is one of the uh designs that they use where they go back and they look at past events like the Tangusca event to see what happened.
So, yes, it's not only something that is used to cross space, but it's also used across time.
""" Caller Well, I'm sure then one of the first targeted things would be the Kennedy assassination. """
""" Caller That's correct. You have any thoughts on that? """
""" Rod Lewis Well, you'd have to ask uh Major Dames whether he has had anybody do an Enigma penetration on the Kennedy assassination. I really don't know whether that's been accomplished or not. """
""" Caller Seems like it would be a natural. """
""" Rod Lewis I think it would be. """
""" Art Bell Mhm. First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. Hi. """
""" Caller Hi. Um """
""" Art Bell where are you? """
""" Caller Oh, I'm in Salem. Uh this is Tom in Salem, """
""" Art Bell Oregon. All right. """
""" Caller Yeah. Um the idea is that time um and space are of a different thing. """
""" Rod Lewis Um they're different dimensions and where the transition between um between time energy and space space inches.
Okay. Your question is ? """
""" Caller Okay. My my really it's a point more than a question. """
""" Art Bell All right. Well, then you've made it and we've got a break here, doctor. We'll be right back. You're listening to you if everything comes off
[music]
with Gordon Michael Scallion. I'll have that for you tonight, later
[music]
tonight. I think I may do it around midnight so the Bay Area gets to hear it.
They have concerns about such things there. Good morning.
[music]
Back now to Houston and Dr. Rod Lewis. """
""" Caller And uh doctor, here's an interesting fact. Brings up an interesting point.
Art, as you know, many of our military contractors are California-based companies. Could you please ask your guest if he has any knowledge of their concerns or strategic concerns in planning by the US military in the event of a catastrophic event on the west coast? """
""" Rod Lewis Well, unfortunately, I think uh most of them are probably not aware because they are operating on a need to know basis and and basically in in intelligence parliament or military parliament that's just means we tell you what you need to know to do your job. So, I think they're pretty ignorant as far as actually knowing what's going on. Now the people who do know of course we have uh this thing called continuity of government and these underground facilities that basically honeycomb the desert southwest. """
""" Caller Yes.
And we hear about things like the chaos hum and uh these different phenomenon Area 51. And I think in case of a national uh emergency uh like a a a cataclysm of some type that they're they have these underground tunnels, they have air air freight, they have ways to uh move most of the per the really important personnel and the really important quote stuff to these safe areas. And I think that's what they would do. """
""" Art Bell All right. Uh, that having been said, um, the one person who probably ought to know, certainly alluded to the fact that he knows is Major Dames. Correct. """
""" Caller Right. """
""" Caller What's he doing in California? """
""" Rod Lewis Well, he he hasn't been there very long.
He moved from Albuquerque, uh, from what I understand, to California, uh, and I believe he's in Beverly Hills someplace.
He has an office for Scitec. """
""" Rod Lewis Uh, I can't say what his motivation is.
Maybe he he believes that uh whatever is going to happen, he may have enough forewarning to take a quick vacation or perhaps his particular area might not be affected or perhaps something else will happen where where he will be be basically made immune to whatever is going on. What bothers me about what you've said, what the major has said, Gordon Michael Scallion, Stand Deo, I could run through a whole litany, a whole list of people, is that all of you are saying roughly the same thing, coming at it from different directions, some scientific, some psychic, some uh pseudocience, but all of them seem to be all of you seem to be delivering approximately the same message. Even the
Hobie Indians, right? And if you listen to uh Robert Morning Sky, he is the official spokesman. I believe >I had him on the show.
Okay. So, uh yeah, that that's very interesting that that science should
meet uh ancient religion at at a point.
We can make a lot of scientific arguments for what we think may happen in the future. Of course, this has been prophesied not only by uh indigenous uh peoples to the United States, but also in the Judeo-Christian Bible. And that's something again that the um the intelligence community or the national security establishment is very very concerned about is this fundamentalist perception that we are entering an end time and a lot of people are even talking about things like the mark of the beast and uh the antichrist and things of that nature. What makes this very interesting is that uh just the belief that people that if they believe it strong enough, it's almost like the
self-fulfilling prophecy. Perhaps they will actually make it happen uh in an unwitting way, but they'll nevertheless make it happen because of their strong belief in it. And I think this is a tremendous concern. But there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that just from a scientific standpoint uh talking about ecology that uh uh our our days uh may be uh compromised may be numbered. """
""" Art Bell All right. East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. Hi. """
""" Caller Hello. Uh
[clears throat]
one quick question. """
""" Art Bell All right. Where where are you calling from, sir? """
""" Caller Uh the one comment is what if Oswald was in the theater at time? """
""" Art Bell All right, sir. Uh before you ask your question, I'm going to ask again. Where are you calling from? """
""" Caller from uh Edwardsville, Illinois.
And now Oswald, what about him?
What if Oswald was in the theater when uh Kennedy was assassinated? In other words, he was set up. Two, uh wasn't there a movie called uh released, not this uh Halloween, but last Halloween called uh Without Warning, where three asteroids come down? """
""" Rod Lewis Yes. I'm glad. Uh I'd rather tackle the second question. """
""" Caller Yeah, that was that was the uh one of the best I've ever seen. One of one of the things I was trying to to think of uh without warning without warning I have it on tape. It is one of the best of the genre. There's no """
""" Art Bell Okay. Now now the the most interesting part to that whole thing because it mixed everything we're talking about. It mixed the possibility of of Earth encountering asteroids. It talks about intelligently guided uh impactors. """
""" Caller That's right. Also, did you notice in one part you have the scientist that rushes over to the Department of Defense and he's talking to these people saying, "No, don't send the don't send the F-16s after these people." What if this had been Muhammad or Buddha or Jesus?
""" Art Bell H that makes sense.
It does. It also makes one wonder about Hailbop. And uh a lot of interesting things have been said recently about Hailbot by Richard Hogland uh regarding guidance. Uh West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. Hi. """
""" Caller Hi. Uh, this is Darl from Salt Lake City, Utah. """
""" Art Bell Yes, sir. """
""" Caller Uh, the doctor mentioned some concerns in the intelligence community about uh, you know, beliefs and the Judeo-Christian religion and um, I was wondering uh, what maybe some of those concerns might be. He touched on it a little bit, I know, but u, and if there was some type of contingency plan for dealing with their concerns in that area. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, we've already seen the first salvos. Obviously the Waco thing was based almost entirely around David Cesh's belief that he belief that that this was the fulfillment of the book of revelation and you have uh this group over in Japan that was allegedly responsible for the gas attack and it has uh end time themes. There was an article recently written in Atlantic Monthly by Robert Kaplan called Apocalypse Soon which talks about the uh government's concern of of different millennialist group. There's something like 1500 millennialist groups in the United States. Now, if they all get a whim at one time, let's say as we approach 2000 to do something, uh no
telling what could happen. You may have total disruption of uh society as we know it. Mhm. Uh you know it's an interesting uh uh theory and I have said on a number of occasions that David Caresh in a lot of ways um fulfilled his own prophecy ensured that his own prophecy was fulfilled and uh is it possible that as a society we are doing what David Kesh did? """
""" Rod Lewis That's a good possibility. Um, that is a real good possibility that and that's what I was saying before that that maybe if we have a belief we may be actually creating that reality and one of your callers earlier said something about a collapse of of spaceime and dimension and this is this is a theory that has been proposed by a number of people both contemporaries and historically that uh basically our view of the world I mean reality exists because we do and that we definitely have an influence on reality and our belief system may be leading us to a collapse in our current view and reality of the world.
I had a guest last Sunday on my Dreamland program, Moira Tims, and uh she actually she got angry uh or on the edge of anger. She said there there was a on that night the report of an 8-point earthquake uh north of Japan, very very large earthquake. and I reported it and she said, "Why are you telling people that?"
And um I I said, "Well, because it's news. Uh we" I said, "We only have about one a year of these, right?" And of course, this is in the predicted cycle of uh Gordon Scallions. And so I said that and she said, "Yes, but that will put people in a mode of thinking that will drive what becomes the reality, which is exactly what we're talking about right now."
Exactly. And I and again I think this is what there's kind of a Manhattan project going on right now at Los Alamos National Laboratories as we discussed and it has to do with parasychology and I think this is one thing that they are very concerned about is that if the belief system becomes so prevalent and so dominant that this may actually lead to the reality that we're fearing. One interesting note uh Art is I've talked to a number of people that talk about time uh seems to be compressed. Time flying by. Now, I know, you know, people have said, you know, as you get older, time does go by faster. """
""" Rod Lewis It does. """
""" Art Bell And there's a there's a physiological and a psychological reason for this. But you're also finding it in kids, """
""" Rod Lewis which normally they their perception of time is that it kind of drags along.
They're reporting that time is being compressed. """
""" Art Bell Oh, now that is interesting. Now, it's interesting that if you go back to the Bible, the the the Judeo-Christian Bible, the term tribulation literally means compression, and it says something in there, those days will be shortened or something like that, """
""" Rod Lewis or which which to us, of course, appears to be an acceleration or a """
""" Art Bell an acceleration of time """
""" Rod Lewis or a quickening """
""" Art Bell or a quickening. """
""" Art Bell East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. Hello. """
""" Caller How you doing, Art? """
""" Art Bell I'm okay. Where are you? """
""" Caller I'm in I'm Scott and I'm from Billings, Montana. """
""" Art Bell All right, Scott. """
""" Caller And you might think of this as a kind of a silly question, but uh um you know the song uh Jimmy Crack Corn and I don't care. """
""" Rod Lewis Yep. """
""" Caller Well, do you know what that means? Do you know the meaning of that song? """
""" Rod Lewis Uh well, I I would No, I actually I don't. So, you go ahead and tell us. I I could give you a general ren rendition, but I won't even try. What does it mean? """
""" Caller My my point is is I don't either.
And """
""" Rod Lewis well then I I guess I haven't heard the question yet. """
""" Caller What I'm trying to say is is I don't believe that there's I believe that there's a lot of kids out there singing this song and they've got this I don't care thing in their head. """
""" Rod Lewis Well, that's part of it though. Um in my estimation. Thank you. """
""" Art Bell In other words, uh the doctor just said that children uh are experiencing an acceleration as well. And I guess that would be one protective psychological attitude you could take about what's occurring. Jimmy Jimmy Crackorn and I don't care. """
""" Caller Mhm. """
""" Rod Lewis Certainly kids today have a very nihilistic view of the world. Uh it's almost it's very frightening because they they perceive that they don't have a future. And I think what you're seeing manifested in in things like body piercing, self mutilation, uh the drug abuse, a lot of the societal problems that we're seeing in in kids today. Uh there seems to be a a rather uh der of hope. Um """
""" Caller no, I I agree, doctor. Here's a good example. I've used this on the air and it's so true. There was a time in America earlier, even in my life, when uh there was a sort of honor among thieves. In other words, a guy would go into a convenience store or a liquor store and he hold up a gun, say, "Give me your cash." And the guy would give him the cash and the guy would leave.
These days, in 1995, he goes in with a gun, says, "Give me your cash." The guy gives him the cash. The guy with the gun shoots the guy behind the counter just for the hell of it. """
""" Art Bell Exactly. Exactly. And you know, another thing too is is sometimes sit down. I think what's very telling about our society or the state of mind we're in is watch kids cartoons. Now I remember I don't know how old you are, but I grew up in the 50s and I can remember things like Howdy Duty and uh """
""" Caller No, me too. I'm """
""" Art Bell just you know fun kind of stuff. But now it's almost all very um post-apocalyptic. there's a lot of post-apoc apocalyptic themes that that the world is is subjugated that um that it it's not a very pleasant place to live and there's just this theme of despair and uh """
""" Caller so these these children that don't believe they have a future right """
""" Caller they may be right """
""" Caller in my opinion they may be """
""" Art Bell first time caller line you're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. """
""" Caller Hi, Art. How you guys doing this morning? """
Fine. Where are you?
""" Caller I'm in Eugene, Oregon. KPNW.
Um, I don't know if you can answer this or not, but I was wondering if you can elaborate more on the nonhuman intelligence that the government was trying to contact. What are these are? """
""" Rod Lewis All right. Well, the answer, I guess, is it's a good question. """
""" Caller Uh, but they they don't know what they're contacting, do they? """
""" Rod Lewis No, they have no idea what they're dealing with. Now, of course, the the immediate speculation is they're probably dealing with some sort of uh something in what we call the demonic realm, which if if you look at the word demon, that's just a Greek word for disembodied intelligence. It doesn't really uh connotate anything. Evil is just a disembodied intelligence. But there appears to be some things out there. We we have no idea what we're dealing with. Uh and apparently, it's something that they take very seriously.
And unfortunately, they're trying to use it again for military and defense purposes. """
""" Art Bell Uh, east of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Rod Lewis. Hi. """
""" Caller Well, hi, Art. I'm so glad to get through to you. """
""" Art Bell You made it. Where are you? """
""" Caller I am in uh Gley, Colorado. I'm uh north of Denver, about 50 miles. """
""" Art Bell All right. """
""" Caller Uh first of all, sir, you are brilliant.
You shine like no star I've ever seen.
Uh, I wanted to ask this doctor about the term he was using, how it's spelled, estology. """
""" Rod Lewis Uh, it's called esquetology. """
""" Caller How? """
""" Rod Lewis And it comes from the root word escaton, which just means the the end of time or the end.
E C H A T O L O G Y. Esquetology.
""" Caller And it means what? """
""" Rod Lewis And it means what? It's it's just sort of a politically correct term for the end of the world or the end of time.
And it applies to both a cult and science or just one or the other.
Uh it's both a scientific and a religious term.
The study of esquetology is just the study of the end time.
And it's usually referred to or related to Judeo-Christian uh prophecy based on the book of Revelation. But a lot of people apply it to any type of ancient prophecy, whether it be Hopi Indian or Muslim or uh Shinto or whatever. And how glad I am to hear you mention some of the Native Americans here because some of the things I found in archaeology uh around this area of the world where I live seem to match up with other things from other religions and uh oh plateaus of where people had societies if you will and I think that uh there is a correlation between the way people have understood stood things in our recent history as far as societies go.
Some of the religions even match up to some of the things that you and other of art's guests have talked about. """
""" Caller Just a great circle sort of. In other words, we are rediscovering what once was known.
Would that be about right, doctor? """
""" Rod Lewis That is a good way to put it. Um, you know, things do go in cycles and and you can look at them from very short-term daily cycles to very long-term cycles in civilization. And I think basically we're going to return to the point from which we departed in this last uh 6 or 7,000 year cycle. """
""" Rod Lewis Yes. Um, our time is about an end here and I want to give you a chance. You uh have a periodical of the CE chronicles.
Correct. """
""" Art Bell That's right. I want to give you, you've been so good about doing this uh spur of the moment. I want to give you a chance to plug it """
""" Rod Lewis and for $5 we can uh send them out a sample issue. Our last issue just came out.
It's called Encounters with the Men in Black. We also have a story on Lewis Farrakhan's Extraterrestrial Vision. Oh, yes.
Which I think is quite telling.
Uh I thought that was fascinating. As a matter of fact, that that uh he did uh he did refer to a a visitation.
That's right. He met Elijah Muhammad aboard a UFO.
That's what he says.
And he called this UFO the wheel, which is actually something about the size of an asteroid.
""" Art Bell Mhm. Um your bulletin board uh will it accept new users? """
""" Rod Lewis Yes, it will. The only thing if if if you just leave a message to me that you heard me on ArtBell, we'll get you set up. uh
[music]
we won't have to go through all the the validation procedure and just leave a message and I'll upgrade your access and uh you can log on and """
""" Art Bell All right. Well, it has been uh surely a pleasure having you on the program and thanks a lot.
Fascinating, [music] doctor. Thank you. """
""" Rod Lewis I enjoyed it. """
""" Art Bell If we're lucky, Gordon Michael Scallion coming up
[music]
tonight. Thank you very much. Good night, America.
[music] """
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